More "Free" items to make points off of.

[Egnar]

Over a year ago the majority of points being traded amongst players was through potions. Higher end potions sold for 150-200 points while lower end potions sold for 75-100 points. It seems like a great thing that these prices have been lowered but in reality, it's not.

This time period is probably the "Golden Age" of the Outwar economy because the high level players relied on the lower leveled players to get them potions on a consistent basis and the lower level players were able to upgrade there accounts through points gained. Overall the economy was steady and while I cannot see the numbers from the Outwar accountants I can only imagine point purchases were roughly consistent based on the demands of players.

However, lately we've seen a trend that is not for the best of this game. When Outwar released new gods they forgot about these lower leveled players, leaving them in the dust as potion gods were forgotten about and prices dropped drastically. Outwar noticed the lack of gods dying, attributed it to a lack of potions being circulated and gave us even cheaper potions in the treasury which only further stepped on the hands of the player driven economists.

This has done nothing but adversely effect the game as high end items become trivialized by the lack of points being put into the economy which is, also, partially the fault of Stone Raven. With more points being taken out of the economy due to Stone Raven being reliant on the treasury and not players we see still 'godly' items once worth 3,500 points now worth less then 1/3rd the former value.

I'm no uber player, nor am I a lowbie with no desire to work for what I get but I do know when something is wrong. Crit augments of which still are in high demand fall rapidly in price meeting the same fate as potions, pants, skill orbs, and god equipment.

There are players willing to pay for Outwar, I am one of them but compared to others I make up a very small portion of the revenue Outwar receives and I truly believe that the best remedy is to release something new on the same lines as potions that are valuable, difficult to make (but in the same respect readily available to the majority of players) and needed to progress much like potions in the past.

Rampid has tried this recently and I believe they failed. The lost foundry has great potential for this type of item but the potions become so trivial that we find players still flocking to the treasury to dump points out of the system with flasks.

A possible solution to what I believe to be a mild failure which I also believe will help boost the economy and willingness to trade between players is to maybe allow players to Mix/Boil/Cook potions from the lost foundry to make better potions.

For example: 5 +100 holy potions might make 1 +250 holy potion and 3 +250 holy potions might make 1 +400 holy potions.

While I do not think amending an old area is the best solution to the underlying problem I believe it is better then nothing. Other solutions might be to make Flasks readily available for free to players through tedious tasks much like Bad Lands but exceedingly more difficult.

Again, I've never seen Rampid's cashflow statement or profit/loss charts but I can't imagine what's happening now to be 'good' for them. Sure relying on the treasury for normal tasks may seem awesome but it drives down the prices of these items so low that less points need to be purchased in order to process them.

[infiniterage666]

I don't agree with you on much, I contribute the lack of points mostly to the SR problem and the ability to trade pts between servers. When you have crews often spending 2k+ pts a day on SR crates and pots your going to have what I like to call backwards inflation, tons of pts are going out of the economy, but not many are coming in.

Also, I can completely agree with you on the prices dropping, I can't give away +2 crit augs for 10 pts anymore, they use to sell for 200 each!

[Bloodkitty1st]

In a way, I completey agree with what Egnar is saying, I can remember a time when DCing potions, was a profitable pass time.

Some player made potions, accessable only through being made by a player, with a decent stat wouldn't be a bad Idea, perhaps a few with a small but vital increase in ATK, that may just push a top crew into the higher gods with more ease.

Or potions that increase stats in %, rather than a complete whole figure.
Perhaps being able to make +20% Kinetic, would be a really cool addition, and perhaps a buff on the elemental required gods, to make these potions worth using,

but as Egnar has stated, we need something to get some lower players into the points market, without forking out tonnes of money.

[Egnar]

I don't agree with you on much, I contribute the lack of points mostly to the SR problem and the ability to trade pts between servers. When you have crews often spending 2k+ pts a day on SR crates and pots your going to have what I like to call backwards inflation, tons of pts are going out of the economy, but not many are coming in.
I cited that specific example in the back end of my post. The fact is we're spending Way more then we're putting in but I firmly believe that if we put something for free that is difficult (like potions) some people will farm it and some people will buy it. Thus, points are still spent but. . .Now the points stay in the economy unlike what we saw with Stone Raven.

[infiniterage666]

Another quick thought, why not make SR crates player "makable"? Thats where the majority of pts are flowing from, at 600+ a run, and 2+ runs a day, the amount of points leaving the actual economy is huge. If we made them player makable, the pts would stay in game, and would allow low end players to get pts themselves.

[simonrobinson]

outwar want you to spend money thats why it was implemented in the first place

[Egnar]

Another quick thought, why not make SR crates player "makable"? Thats where the majority of pts are flowing from, at 600+ a run, and 2+ runs a day, the amount of points leaving the actual economy is huge. If we made them player makable, the pts would stay in game, and would allow low end players to get pts themselves.
I agree that it might help the economy slightly but I think it runs along the same idea as just adding to the current potions in The Lost Foundry. Of course 'making' a Stone Raven crate would have to be exceptionally difficult and rare.

Though, like I said I think something completely new is the best bet to save the economy because it'll spark attention from everyone.

outwar want you to spend money thats why it was implemented in the first place
Of course but a dead economy isn't good for Outwar because it means people have to spend much less points for just about anything. A stable thriving economy encourages players to buy from Outwar because they need much more to make a purchase as well as being insured that when they sell those items at a later date they'll make an OK sum back.

[Rampid_Justin]

Though, like I said I think something completely new is the best bet to save the economy because it'll spark attention from everyone.

One of the only things I can 100% agree with in this topic.

[Champion_]

thing is the pts players arent trading between them are getting spent right BACK TO OW direct return not sent to other player to spend how they like.. so those points are eliminated from the game ... but player to player trading is points exchanged and they are still there. so they are probabely making more now then they ever did

[infiniterage666]

I wouldn't be surprised, that pay by cash addition was brilliant. I hope whoever came up with it got a nice bonus.


Besides that, OW to the person who insists "OW admins want you to waste points", of course they do-to a certain extent. But not to how far this has gone, when you can buy good gods for cheap prices people are naturally going to spend less points than they would if the economy is good, so obviously OW does want to keep a decent amount of points in the economy so people will pay more to get better items.

[Egnar]

thing is the pts players arent trading between them are getting spent right BACK TO OW direct return not sent to other player to spend how they like.. so those points are eliminated from the game ... but player to player trading is points exchanged and they are still there. so they are probabely making more now then they ever did
If points are spent between players you have a stable economy which encourages buying because when you purchase an item you have assurance that when you upgrade you can sell that item back into the economy for a decent price.

Points were usually spent between players and crews meaning that players themselves needed to buy points still in order to make purchases.

I'm not completely against the idea of some things needing to be fed back through Outwar because they as a company need to make a profit but I think for the good of the economy some things need to rely on player to player/crew trading.

[Champion_]

but a majority of pts are spent on gemming items... and all stone raven items are non trade so if they make new items.. people are gonna hafta REGEM and get no profit in return from the stone raven items since they player bound so when ow comes out with a new set ... there goes 3200 points or more in gemming on player bound items that people what new items.

[Champion_]

they need to come out with a new set of potion gods.. or gonna get flamed for this.. make god respawns LONGER. so people need to buy more and also SR should be like 1/2 a god cap for a raid or something since its retarded its better then 90%%% the gods out there .

[Rampid_Justin]

If points are spent between players you have a stable economy which encourages buying because when you purchase an item you have assurance that when you upgrade you can sell that item back into the economy for a decent price.

Points were usually spent between players and crews meaning that players themselves needed to buy points still in order to make purchases.

I'm not completely against the idea of some things needing to be fed back through Outwar because they as a company need to make a profit but I think for the good of the economy some things need to rely on player to player/crew trading.

While I can understand your thoughts, the more we cross over the line of player -> player trading instead of point removal, the more you get into a place where the point has less value due to the fact that it has no where to go and just accumulates. Over time if players have no reason (or the cost is reduced) to spend points that go away (instead of just being traded around), then it makes buying useless.

However we also do recognize that it is a line, and that is the reason we price things certain ways. I couldn't tell you exactly how close to that equilibrium we are though.

[Egnar]

I agree Justin - There is a line, there is always a line and I think that when you find the sweet spot Rampid will be at the top of it's profit and players will be at there happiest. Right now, however, I don't think we're very close to it.

[Champion_]

thing is whats gonna go fast.. a person buying cheap flasks from the treasury OR a person buying player items liek potions but something better... like back then when prices were higher and then that player goes and spends those points on gemming and what not... more pt removal and stronger lower end players

[supersimons]

I know this is a dead thread. But Egnar called it.

[Mussy]

one way to increase point buying is releasing items (not a set), equal to or better than celest for lvl 50+'s, which are tradeable, i understand ur doing it with woz, but more items with no bound need to be pumped...

[Egnar]

I know this is a dead thread. But Egnar called it.
Of course I did, I've played enough of these games to know how they work.

one way to increase point buying is releasing items (not a set), equal to or better than celest for lvl 50+'s, which are tradeable, i understand ur doing it with woz, but more items with no bound need to be pumped...
You know what a big issue is? Sets in general - Set bonuses now days are so strong that even when new items come out players will be forced to hold onto sets for fear of losing amazing attack/hp bonuses. Right now I'd love to upgrade from Sovereign but by getting rid of terrible items like the ring I lose roughly 1,200 hp!

[trojanhorse]

You know what a big issue is? Sets in general - Set bonuses now days are so strong that even when new items come out players will be forced to hold onto sets for fear of losing amazing attack/hp bonuses. Right now I'd love to upgrade from Sovereign but by getting rid of terrible items like the ring I lose roughly 1,200 hp!

this is true
i have a cabal plate and a proton and bslp
and sevral other stuff but i lose to some1 with the same lvl but with sov set
so set bonus really helps

PS good call egnar
hope justin reads what he said b4 and comment :P pots for 75-100 pts :P they sell for 3 pts now

[GAGE]

its all well and good ow adding new potions to the game and what not but the same problem is always gonna be there and thats the fact people will always undercut and when u start that it becomes a chain reaction and the more it under cuts the quicker it goes down and down in price, because people are not willing to wait and sell something for a 100 points they will sell 10 points cheaper, but when one sells at 90 that becomes its new price which devaules anything so quickly

if ow want to add the chance for us to do flasks, then the only time we should get the chance to make erm is during woz, so they should go back to how they did with the first 5 woz waves and allow us to make the flasks from them waves but not have them player bound but tradeable, that way people can make points as they are set in treasury at 150 so players would easy get 100+ points for them because they are in demand

[Jaryd2006]

While I can understand your thoughts, the more we cross over the line of player -> player trading instead of point removal, the more you get into a place where the point has less value due to the fact that it has no where to go and just accumulates. Over time if players have no reason (or the cost is reduced) to spend points that go away (instead of just being traded around), then it makes buying useless.

However we also do recognize that it is a line, and that is the reason we price things certain ways. I couldn't tell you exactly how close to that equilibrium we are though.

But it goes both ways, What about the players who dont buy points who dont like to spend their points theyve earned on a no trade item because they cant sell it later?

They would buy a tradeable item which their points would go to someone who would buy a no trade item and thus still leave the game, It just leaves it later.


I know I hate gemming no trade items too, and I avoid it whenever I can, yet when I raided myself 20 crests, I gemmed them as soon as I could. I still havent gemmed my multis Thanksgiving quest helmets or the sovereign boots.

[GAGE]

what justin was saying back then was kinda true but back then we didnt have BRB so everything but BRB being player bound would work now as BRB must take atleast 70% of the points bought out the game just leaving 30% to floating around

[nhake]

I still propose a time limit on a crew quest item being player/raider bound. After 6 months (or so) they should be switch to trade-able with a minimum level requirement.

[hellfighter87]

One of the only things I can 100% agree with in this topic.

THe problem with enw things is, you make a macro for it and start farming it ;)

That's mainly the reason why potions dropped in price, there came more and more people running macro's farming more and more potions, overflooding the market and that dropped the price :P <- same thing will happen with this new thing unless their is a way you can't make a macro for it or making a macro for it is not going to make a difference when you do everything by hand :o

[crypticlifestyle]

THe problem with enw things is, you make a macro for it and start farming it ;)

That's mainly the reason why potions dropped in price, there came more and more people running macro's farming more and more potions, overflooding the market and that dropped the price :P <- same thing will happen with this new thing unless their is a way you can't make a macro for it or making a macro for it is not going to make a difference when you do everything by hand :o


I gotta agree with a lot of this statement...As far as potion value goes, a lot of it really has to do with the rising popularity of typpo use...Everyone brings up the usual stop typpo cause everyone is growing too fast argument but no one has ever ventured into the realm of how typpo is really what killed the value market on potions...

Theres so many potions being made so easily, and with there being less, and less things for players to actually make some kinda of steady profit off of anymore the market is flooded with pots (even if they arnt on the treasury there is a huge market/trade sector of pot sales that are not advertised, and readily avail upon request)...They are only worth 3 points each on sigil, much less if purchased in bulk...2-3 years ago they were selling for 25-60 each kineteic being the most expensive...There were far less people actually selling them then in comparison...I know some days it was impossible to find any to buy no matter how many treasury or shoutbox posts were made...

I dont see messing with potions helping any economy out, except of 1 possible circumstance... If new potions were developed to be used on a whole new tier of potion gods, that are much much harder to farm, make...

If outwar is set on creating a boom in point purchasing raising treasury prices, and short handing you wherever possible isnt or will it ever be an effective strategy...In the rare instances when that kind of marketing gets implemented it never lasts long...No human will ever adapt, appreciate, or accept, and allow spending more on things if they cant justify it to themselves no matter how much they may need or depend on it...They are always more likable to justify, and accept no longer getting, or buying it...I always like to use the price of gas goes up, and hardly anyone goes on vacation anymore argument ;)

1 of many solutions i see positively working using a portion of the idea given in this thread is adapting a new potion system to a new god tier(s)...I know we've waited for COES to come out forever now, but i see it more beneficial for everyone if COES was put on hold, and 2 new whole tiers of gods sperate from COES are put into the game at the same time of COES's release...All being of high end nature, and all needing some form of new tradeable potions having to be used...Release 20-30 new high end gods to raid, all dropping an assortment array of high end items competing with bacaba items your going to have a nice boom of point buying going on, and it'll keep people, as well as the market busy for awhile...

If you want to accept it or not Bacaba is dying off its usefullness...It's time to release the v2 of it to keep it moving along @ a positive rate...

Also before the usual balancing argument gets tossed out it's time to move away from that philosophy, and accept that outwar needs to keep bigger, and better items coming out on a regular basis to keep peoples interests in wanting posses them, and purchasing points...Its is un-avoidable, and inevitable that the item stats as we know them today, and we are so comfortable with, are bound to be the noob items @ a later time if we like it or not...Seems like everyone has some kind of invisible mental barrier of what should be too much, and thats silly...

Some bars sell only a dozen types of beer, some sell up to 85 brands of beer...Who do you think is making more money, attracting more customers, and producing more profit? (just something to think about)

Anyways

On top of new a new potion release, and a new god tier system being mass released you will also need to give a purpose to having and needing to get the new high end items..Give a purpose to having to posses them in some way, and all will be justified, and the market will revive in a positive direction...

On another note it seem Rampid really only deals with a select few if any for item concept art...Which tends to always lean to a rather large disappointment...A all of outwar contest for new set art voted by the players should become a regular thing, and just leave the stats up to outwar to decide so its all still a surprise in the end...

Though its early still, and i'm in mid-coffee i feel very strongly about all this...

[Egnar]

That's mainly the reason why potions dropped in price, there came more and more people running macro's farming more and more potions, overflooding the market and that dropped the price :P <- same thing will happen with this new thing unless their is a way you can't make a macro for it or making a macro for it is not going to make a difference when you do everything by hand :o
No, the main reason they dropped in price was Rampid wanted to make some money off of it and put them in the treasury for less than we were selling them for. . . Then when prices continued to drop they lowered potion prices once again, cutting our prices.

[crypticlifestyle]

No, the main reason they dropped in price was Rampid wanted to make some money off of it and put them in the treasury for less than we were selling them for. . . Then when prices continued to drop they lowered potion prices once again, cutting our prices.

No potion prices didnt drop to 3 points cause the treasury sells them for 25-45 points Egnar lol...It lead to pots being cheaper but its not why it dropped down to near nothing...

Its people having multiple RGA's farming up to 70 pots a day (true fact) and selling them in such frequency...They are as common as brut pots if not more common...

Prices are shit cause everyone farms and sells the crap out of them from using typpo farming them 24/7...Treasury helped with the decline, but as always higher production dramatically reduced the sale price...

[Egnar]

Of course it didn't lead them to being 3 points - - But it was the catalyst to the huge drops. Prices were fairly steady before Rampid tried to get a piece of the action, regardless of whatever other factors became a part of it. Hell, I miss those days of constantly having 2,000+ points for selling arcanes at 150 each.

[crypticlifestyle]

I know @ the time at least on Sigil they were somewhat priced to be competitive with the sigil market...But the one thing that didnt make them popular then, and still remains true to today is the ones from the treasury arnt trade able...Hopefully that will always remain that way, not that it would matter much now anywas with the value difference, but also remain that way if they introduce any new potions...

So admins please take note of the idea brough forth in this thread & take them seriously...Justin i know you'll end up reading this, may wanna give a nudge to your fellow colleuges to take note...

[GAGE]

no matter what outwar adds there is always gonna be one factor that kills the price of it quickly and thats not typpo or marco its the players themself undercutting each other, as soon as that begins prices go to sh1t.

When BRB was first done i sold the tradeable body for 6.5k, then another crew went to do it and sold it for 48k so we beat it again 2 days after that and all the message u got were bodys aint 6k they are only 4k, so with one person doing that it lowers the prices and people aint prepaired to wait a month or 2 to sell an item they wanna sell it now, and u only have to look at the prices of brb items are now 90 points belt, which sold for 2.5k at first, neck which sold for 4-5k now selling at 300, body which sold for 5-6k now selling at 200, head sold for 1500-2000 now selling for 150, all because people under cut themselfs so much they made little to no profit from the items they sold that then declines the sales on anything eles in the game, i have no doubt it celestial v2 was added if it had tradable items the same thing would happen, because no item reallys holds it vaule for longer than a couple of weeks unless its hard to beat

[Mussy]

i think they shud refurbish the old potions, make the drops a little more hard to get, and give the potions actual stats like holy pot = 150 res , 100 holy atk. Nothing too overpowered, and also maybe get rid of the other res pots frm foundry...

[meowzor]

i think they shud refurbish the old potions, make the drops a little more hard to get, and give the potions actual stats like holy pot = 150 res , 100 holy atk. Nothing too overpowered, and also maybe get rid of the other res pots frm foundry...

Its not about being hard to get its about mass production people run rampids with 25 multis on the potions nonstop that the problem. I would like to see some elemental attack from the foundry. I think if outwar does add a new area to dc potions you should have to have a key (that will expire and have to be gotten again) to dc it at all times because that would increase the vaule and reduce the ability for them to be typpoed.

[Egnar]

Refurbishing old potions won't help because people already have tons of pieces for them - We need something new.

[ReligionX]

Refurbishing old potions won't help because people already have tons of pieces for them - We need something new.
Like a set of potions that give you 80% physical damage reduction (or a flat amount of 45,000 damage) against certain new raid bosses that deal incredibly high physical damage. For example, the guardian deals 50,000 Physical Damage, and the potion will reduce it to 10,000 damage.

Probably impossible to kill the guardians at first without these potions, and as the game evolves, like it has where players don't need elemental potions necessarily to kill shield wall guardians.

Velocity Breaker
Momentum Breaker
Inertia Breaker
Friction Breaker
Force Breaker

Collect power cell, energy coils, magnets, and so on to effectively make Shield Potions.

[malifisto]

i think one solution to the problem is not how hard they are to get but how hard it would be to auto it. the harder to get you make them the more people will want to auto do them. Make it impossible to macro. to get a potion now you have to kill three specific mobs to get x amount of quest items. seems to me having to kill 40 mobs in a random order would be impossible to macro. example new quest one of 5 types of potions. quest starts kill mob A 20 or so steps each calling for a specific mob. rewards a potion. all you have to do is have a each quest step call for a random mob or a group of mobs. each time would be different mobs and numbers of them. throw in a few boss mobs and you have a quest that is harder to macro then it would be to do it manually.the key is not to make it the same every time. you could simply make it harder by adding more steps. needs to time consuming not boring. Dont know if i have made this clear.

an example. a fire potion v2 100 fire resist 100 fire damage
step 1 kill 4 gnawlers
step 2 kill 6 wisp
step 60 kill zugzug
reward fire potion V2

seems straight forward kicker would be next time you did it the mobs would be in a different random order. making it very tedious to macro this.a fire potion now is just repititious killing of the same three mobs. just code it as 5 to 10 of a lidt of 60 or so mobs.

i think this would be a more interesting repeatable quest.

[Exbyte]

heres a thought. didnt there used to be a rule that if a mob was alot higher lvl then you it would get a bonus in att and hp? so heres my though. a while ago when this rule was in play real accounts had to make pots instead of lots of multis. which meant theyd sell them for a good price because they actually needed the pts to upgrade their gear. so just make coes need pots and readd this rule so actual main accounts would have to get the pots and sell them.

[Exbyte]

or stop letting people break the fourth wall and delete all multis. cause its to easy to make good multis these days and get almost everything yourself.

oh the truth comes out? multis are the problem because this game is pretty old and alot of multis can do anything a new main account can do. i myself have 10 multis that i made a few years ago for skills. all are good enough to hunt potions.

oh egnar if you actually read this maybe throw around the idea that gods dropping points is the problem?

[Egnar]

oh egnar if you actually read this maybe throw around the idea that gods dropping points is the problem?
The multi problem? I'm sure it's part of it, but, I feel like crews will still overpower lower gods in secondary crews for the sheer purpose of "they can". . .Cornering the limited market and all since they have nothing else to do all day because the game doesn't have any actual content.

[Exbyte]

hmm yea I suppose. it seems to me that its pretty much every update that ruined the game and there is no one fix that will make everything better.

on the actual question at hand though id say whatever gets added if anything. just make it in coes and make coes lvl 50 to enter since any one thats done eob and sov will be atleast that lvl if not 55 or even higher. it doesnt even have to have a part in the coes gods. but still i know people that have multis that lvl but atleast it will stop the horde of lvl 30 multis with dest or noob gods.

[malifisto]

i still think the random steps on a quest would force players to do them manually. Would stop multis from farming the potions and make it more interesting to do. If its added to coes then it will not be a quest for lower level accounts to help buff themselves. Which was discussed lower level accounts feeding the higher level accounts to put money in places where the players woudl spend them.

[Gwydion]

Over a year ago the majority of points being traded amongst players was through potions. Higher end potions sold for 150-200 points while lower end potions sold for 75-100 points. It seems like a great thing that these prices have been lowered but in reality, it's not.

This time period is probably the "Golden Age" of the Outwar economy because the high level players relied on the lower leveled players to get them potions on a consistent basis and the lower level players were able to upgrade there accounts through points gained. Overall the economy was steady and while I cannot see the numbers from the Outwar accountants I can only imagine point purchases were roughly consistent based on the demands of players.

However, lately we've seen a trend that is not for the best of this game. When Outwar released new gods they forgot about these lower leveled players, leaving them in the dust as potion gods were forgotten about and prices dropped drastically. Outwar noticed the lack of gods dying, attributed it to a lack of potions being circulated and gave us even cheaper potions in the treasury which only further stepped on the hands of the player driven economists.

This has done nothing but adversely effect the game as high end items become trivialized by the lack of points being put into the economy which is, also, partially the fault of Stone Raven. With more points being taken out of the economy due to Stone Raven being reliant on the treasury and not players we see still 'godly' items once worth 3,500 points now worth less then 1/3rd the former value.

I'm no uber player, nor am I a lowbie with no desire to work for what I get but I do know when something is wrong. Crit augments of which still are in high demand fall rapidly in price meeting the same fate as potions, pants, skill orbs, and god equipment.

There are players willing to pay for Outwar, I am one of them but compared to others I make up a very small portion of the revenue Outwar receives and I truly believe that the best remedy is to release something new on the same lines as potions that are valuable, difficult to make (but in the same respect readily available to the majority of players) and needed to progress much like potions in the past.

Rampid has tried this recently and I believe they failed. The lost foundry has great potential for this type of item but the potions become so trivial that we find players still flocking to the treasury to dump points out of the system with flasks.

A possible solution to what I believe to be a mild failure which I also believe will help boost the economy and willingness to trade between players is to maybe allow players to Mix/Boil/Cook potions from the lost foundry to make better potions.

For example: 5 +100 holy potions might make 1 +250 holy potion and 3 +250 holy potions might make 1 +400 holy potions.

While I do not think amending an old area is the best solution to the underlying problem I believe it is better then nothing. Other solutions might be to make Flasks readily available for free to players through tedious tasks much like Bad Lands but exceedingly more difficult.

Again, I've never seen Rampid's cashflow statement or profit/loss charts but I can't imagine what's happening now to be 'good' for them. Sure relying on the treasury for normal tasks may seem awesome but it drives down the prices of these items so low that less points need to be purchased in order to process them.

I completely agree we are not in DEPRESSION!! yipee not only potions and augments but orbs to :(

[ReligionX]

i think one solution to the problem is not how hard they are to get but how hard it would be to auto it. the harder to get you make them the more people will want to auto do them. Make it impossible to macro.
A series of random kill quest steps would certainly limit access to players who use automated programs. It could theoretically be less time consuming and take just as much rage (on average) as the other potions, and really be easier for players who are not using automated programs.

This is a better method than requiring random components, as players could hoard components, abandon quest, and try for a "re-roll" on what items need to be turned in. I imagine programming random steps would be quite difficult to do though.

How about:

Step 1 - Potion Master - Has 5 Quest Options. Accept 1 of the quests.
Step 2 - Kill Potion Master.
Step 3 - Talk to Potion Master. He disappears. The appropriate Potion Crafter appears.
Step 4 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Key Holder 1 Gains Talk Option.
Step 5 - Key Holder. Talk. Gives temporary key room.
Step 6 - Potion Crafter. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 7 - Kill Potion Crafter.
Step 8 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 9 - Kill Potion Crafter.
Step 10 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 11 - Kill Potion Crafter. Talk. Get potion. Potion Master Respawns. Key Holder loses Talk Option.

Can't get in with automated programs unless you have the key, and you have to constantly talk. You have to wait for quest giver to respawn, throwing off macros.

[malifisto]

A series of random kill quest steps would certainly limit access to players who use automated programs. It could theoretically be less time consuming and take just as much rage (on average) as the other potions, and really be easier for players who are not using automated programs.

This is a better method than requiring random components, as players could hoard components, abandon quest, and try for a "re-roll" on what items need to be turned in. I imagine programming random steps would be quite difficult to do though.

How about:

Step 1 - Potion Master - Has 5 Quest Options. Accept 1 of the quests.
Step 2 - Kill Potion Master.
Step 3 - Talk to Potion Master. He disappears. The appropriate Potion Crafter appears.
Step 4 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Key Holder 1 Gains Talk Option.
Step 5 - Key Holder. Talk. Gives temporary key room.
Step 6 - Potion Crafter. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 7 - Kill Potion Crafter.
Step 8 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 9 - Kill Potion Crafter.
Step 10 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 11 - Kill Potion Crafter. Talk. Get potion. Potion Master Respawns. Key Holder loses Talk Option.

Can't get in with automated programs unless you have the key, and you have to constantly talk. You have to wait for quest giver to respawn, throwing off macros.

seems like this would take forever play wise you'd have to just sit and wait kill a few mobs then sit and wait some more i dont know what time frame respawn time is but if its more then ten mins then this would take about and hour most of it sitting and waiting for respawn. my version woudl be more interesting no waiting less boring. would be alot of moving around. and impossible to macro since your targets are random. im sure a program could be made to do my version but i dont think it woudl be worth it to do one quest even for potions. and it would be pretty simple to code it in

[thegoldendemon]

A series of random kill quest steps would certainly limit access to players who use automated programs. It could theoretically be less time consuming and take just as much rage (on average) as the other potions, and really be easier for players who are not using automated programs.

This is a better method than requiring random components, as players could hoard components, abandon quest, and try for a "re-roll" on what items need to be turned in. I imagine programming random steps would be quite difficult to do though.

How about:

Step 1 - Potion Master - Has 5 Quest Options. Accept 1 of the quests.
Step 2 - Kill Potion Master.
Step 3 - Talk to Potion Master. He disappears. The appropriate Potion Crafter appears.
Step 4 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Key Holder 1 Gains Talk Option.
Step 5 - Key Holder. Talk. Gives temporary key room.
Step 6 - Potion Crafter. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 7 - Kill Potion Crafter.
Step 8 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 9 - Kill Potion Crafter.
Step 10 - Potion Crafter. Talk. Kill 20 Mobs in Room.
Step 11 - Kill Potion Crafter. Talk. Get potion. Potion Master Respawns. Key Holder loses Talk Option.

Can't get in with automated programs unless you have the key, and you have to constantly talk. You have to wait for quest giver to respawn, throwing off macros.

if u add exampel : Step 9 - Kill Potion Crafter. get another key ( since the first one disapears after u talked to the potion crafter ) then u dont need long respawn rate on the crafters